design think • product manifestation • future realization • Ai development
Debra Butler
chief executive officer | founder
debra.butler@neverneedswinding.com
917.513.5046
John Zavocki
president | founder
john.zavocki@neverneedswinding.com
917.972.1180
we're not an agency ; we have agency
immersive decades before immersive
data driven by design
abstract and polymorphic
one foot in the past ; one foot in the future
we're behind products you already love
radical innovation through agentic automation
LA ↔ DC ↔ NYC